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Ducks Unlimited Podcast is a constant discussion of all things waterfowl; from in-depth hunting tips and tactics, to waterfowl biology, research, science, and habitat updates. The DU Podcast is the go-to resource for waterfowl hunters and conservationists. Ducks Unlimited is the world's leader in wetlands conservation.
Chris Jennings: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Ducks in the podcast. I'm your host, Chris Jennings. Joining me on the podcast today is Jay Anglin, a freelance contributor to ducks.org and our migration Great Lakes migration alert editor. Jay, what's going on, man?
Jay Anglin: Ah, you know, just enjoying this awesome spring weather. As I look out the window, it's snowing. So yeah, Northern Indiana's finest weather kicking in right now.
Chris Jennings: Yeah, you're definitely getting a little bit of, uh, you guys got a little taste of spring there and then now you're getting cold again. I think everyone's kind of dealing with that, especially the upper Midwest. Um, that's kind of what I want to bring Jay on the show today. And really we wanted to do a wrap up of the, you know, light goose conservation order for 2024. Um, and Jay, you know, what are you hearing out there as far as guys still being able to chase geese?
Jay Anglin: You know it's been a pretty remarkable season and just to cut to your question and and and address it directly there's still guys sitting under you know birds right now as we speak in the Dakotas and they're doing pretty darn good. It's it's amazing to me. I just saw where Nebraska last weekend, I don't remember if there's, I think their season's still open. I can't recall, but I know guys were right, you know, just last weekend, we're having some amazing hunts in Nebraska, you know, cause again, back to the pushback. We'll talk more about that, but yeah, no, it's just, the guys are still chugging along and you know, every year I see, I'm going to go up there and April and May in Canada or whatever, and now I'm steelhead fishing and getting revved up for turkey, so it's not going to happen this year.
Chris Jennings: Yeah, life gets into the way of snow goose season a lot, and I know it did for me this year, especially. Yeah, so, you know, let's kind of talk about that. You know, I think the big story of the season was the extremely warm weather throughout the south and mid-south towards the end of January, and guys were talking about birds were just bailing out and just pushing north as fast as they can. Well then, what was it, about 10 days ago, two weeks ago maybe, pretty good, pretty significant snowstorm hits the Dakotas, and that really, you know, really the brakes were smashed down, and those birds really started, you know, funneling back south. What were you hearing on that, you know, as far as the overall season, and then it kind of came to a head right there. I don't know, a couple of weeks ago when guys were like, they're going to be in North Dakota and some of them were, and then all of a sudden they all got pushed back.
Jay Anglin: First of all, if you'd have told me, or, you know, if I, if I wouldn't have seen it myself, I wouldn't have believed that Arkansas held as many birds as long as it did. And I know you guys are right down there. and can see it yourselves. But birds, it's kind of a mystery. I don't know if they came out of Mexico and cut up through Louisiana or East Texas and just made a straight shot into Arkansas. And then one day they showed up. But all my guide friends down there, outfitters I've spoken with, guys I talk to that just chase them. And they had incredible numbers all the way up through southeast Missouri, the Boot Hill. And then it seems like those birds, in a normal year, will kind of trickle up through Illinois. And Illinois can be such a great state for for spring snows. And this year, it was kind of interesting. Some of those birds made those big jumps, and that was really triggered by that warm weather you spoke of. The three times I was in north central Missouri, the one time it got in the low 70s up there. It's almost too warm. You get a south wind pushing gust of 40. Those birds aren't going to stop. There's no reason for them to stop in air like that. you know, once in a while you get a single, that's probably, you know, whatever's wrong with it, or it's just tired. It'll break out. And that makes it worth, you know, being there, I suppose. But a lot of guys weren't buying the fact that so many birds got that far North and we're going back a month. Now there was birds literally bumping into Saskatchewan here and there. And everybody said, well, everything's frozen. Everything's frozen. Well, there's one thing I think a lot of guys fail to remember and that is that these geese, snow geese, Ross's geese, they breed and live in an environment that is literally it's winter, up into June sometimes. And of course, that has a huge impact on the hatches and breeding or nesting. But bottom line is, these birds are geared for really, really cold weather and snow and ice. And really, they don't have to eat and feed for an amazing number of days. They just kind of hold out. So that was kind of happening. They got a couple little storms. And then, as you talked about two, three weeks ago, whatever, there's been several different events. But there was one big one And that one finally locked down a lot of the birds that got up all the way into North Dakota. But a lot of birds in South Dakota, they just turn around and skedaddle right on back into Nebraska, parts of Iowa. And I'm sure some went back to Missouri, too. But the big concentrations really mobbed up in the rainwater basin and along the Missouri River. And again, I know there's still some birds there, but one theme I wanna mention real quick, and it's been happening a lot. And looking back, maybe it happened all the time and I was distracted by kids and whatever else was going on in life. But these storms come through and they hit the Dakotas, okay? They might center a little more over North Dakota, a little more over South Dakota. And then they kind of go in there and wallop Minnesota like they do so often. But north of a certain line, and often, amazingly enough, it's the international boundary, They really don't get that much snow. And the drought conditions in Manitoba, for example, a lot of that has to do with the fact that they're not getting those big snows. So consequently, those adult birds and the hardy jubies that hang out with them, they seem to go up there and lock down. So once the blizzard stops and all the drifts start to melt, everybody digs out, everybody's like, wow, they're already back. Well, I think a lot of those birds just never leave. They just hunker down somewhere and bury themselves in the snow and hang out. So that's kind of what happened. Early, ton of birds went north, especially juvies, which I'd like to get into. But early, I mean. And then they kind of resorted and everything. And then that big bounce back happened. And like Tony Vandermore says every year, there's going to be a bounce back. There always is. So it definitely happened this year, 100%.
Chris Jennings: Yeah. And in the midst of all of that, which is in it, like you mentioned, there were guys killing snows in Arkansas two weeks ago, you know, in last week of March or second to last week of March, there were still guys now that it was few and far between, but there were still pockets of birds kind of pushing right along that Missouri border. And there were still guys down there and you knew a couple of guys who were down there hunting, didn't you? Absolutely.
Jay Anglin: Uh, you know, uh, you know, I, I speak to a few guys here and there and I'm going to Missouri next week, I'm going to South Dakota next week. How South Dakota, I never left Arkansas, we're still shooting birds. And it just went on and on like that for weeks on end. And I said, come on, and then you send me these photos. Yeah, we got 96 this morning. And I'm like, over the same spread. And a lot of times it gets late, you have to start chasing feeds, because the bottom line is you're just not going to get enough traffic to really make it worth your while. So they get the mobile spread cranked up, get two or three crews bouncing around. Anyhow, good for those outfitters because they were able to really kind of, you know, dig in a little deeper into March and, and, uh, you know, pay for some of that overhead, which is, as we all know, with snow goose hunting is incredible, it's astronomical. But, uh, again, you know, I went back and the biologist in me couldn't help it. I started digging around and looking at Mexico, South Texas, Louisiana, you know, a lot of snow geese end up all the way down in, uh, you know, Veracruz and even further South in Mexico and some of those ag, ag areas. And there's a part of me that just, perhaps there's trackers out there and they know this, but I just, I'm starting to think that those birds go down there and they live the life of Riley in Mexico, warm sunny days, eating good food. And one day they're like, hey, let's go up to Arkansas because every time we get all those big pushes up through Illinois and Missouri and think, yeah, Arkansas is empty. These guys would say, no, I just saw 100,000 this morning. So a lot of this is conjecture on my part, based on anecdotal observation. But when it comes to snow goose, and especially spring snow goose hunting, as well as I do, that there's a pretty good human intel bank there. And it really adds up. You start putting the pieces together.
Chris Jennings: I know you know some guys who, you know, hunt Southern Indiana, Southern Illinois. You know, how did the guys in Southern Indiana fare? I know that that area holds so many birds and we've talked about it before, but I was just curious with that way that that weather fluctuated back and forth and those things were pushing so hard, did Southern Indiana lose a bunch of birds pretty early?
Jay Anglin: Yeah, so one of the problems with Southern Indiana is they're really confined really right along the Illinois border there. And a lot of times they feed in Illinois, which I could go into deeper. But one big hit is farming practices are dictated often by state, federal and state guidelines. And in Illinois, they seem to have more appealing ag practices. That's all I'll say about that, I guess, but it makes sense. But nonetheless, a lot of those really hardy adults start stacking up in their early January in the book, February and all that. And yes, they were there, but they were gone. It was like here one day gone the next. And I think a lot of that has to do with that they had set it out really consistently. Everybody I spoke to said they'd be in a field for maybe a day, day and a half or two, and then it would just be smoked. There'd be nothing to eat. So they moved over to Illinois pretty quick. And, you know, talking to those guys down there and guys that hunt them, you know, just fun hunt and some of the guides, uh, it became pretty clear that, um, a lot of those birds they were dealing with were, were not just adults, but there were two year olds and some juvies that were just so dog gone smart. You know, they'd been beat on a little bit, you know, early, you know, during the regular season in January. And, uh, of course, Indiana, you know, we don't, um, Our LGCO starts after our late dark season. So it's mid-Feb, February. But yeah, in Illinois, I know those guys had pretty consistent hunting. And that was largely comprised of what a lot of times we'll call them local birds, but we know they're not local. But localized would be a better term. Their birds have been hanging around. They're sitting on a refuge. They kind of know what's going on. They know the pathways, where to go, where not to go. They've been stung a few times. And as more birds come in, they kind of fall in line with them. And it's very reminiscent of large concentrations of darkies. It takes them a day or two and they're like, okay, I get it. You do not go to that field. Um, and I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but that's the facts. It's just, it just seemed very consistent, but you know, and on top of that, Illinois, and I think this saved them a lot of days because they were really dealing with some tough birds for a lot of those guys in Southern Illinois. And there's, there's a lot of guys hunting in Southern Illinois. I think, you know, One of the problems was, again, those adult birds were tough to hunt, but they still had some consistent hunts, which was indicative of that daily sort of migration. Some days it was a trickle, some days it was a full-on super highway. Anybody that's hunted spring snows has had a day where you've looked up and it's just like a conveyor belt of snow geese for hours on end. And that certainly happens a lot in southern Illinois. Um, I've seen it in Kansas and Nebraska, but I've never seen it. Like I've seen it in Southern Illinois on a really, really good push day. So they really did well, uh, you know, I'm sure they had better seasons, but it was consistent. And so it wasn't like that bang, bang, you know, week and a half, 10 days, three weeks, whatever it was like consistently whole time, you know? Uh, and that's great. Cause guys, you know, get some something to, to cling to even on days when you're like oh there's not going to be anything pushing today you still have some birds so anyway uh that much the same could be said about most of missouri too at least the northern half yeah um maybe not i was gonna say the outfitters that i talked to in like southeast missouri really kind of felt
Chris Jennings: that a bunch of those birds jumped from Arkansas all the way up into Northern Missouri with, they kind of felt like they got the short end of the stick there in Southeast Missouri. They just, they just didn't hold huge numbers of birds that they were accustomed to. Um, they, they, you know, catch some on flight days, but they just didn't have the big feeds that they typically have had the last few years. So they kind of felt like, um, they got the short end of that stick, but did you hear anything along those lines?
Jay Anglin: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that will circle back to Indiana and Illinois, those early concentrations that were holding on big refuges. I think quite a few of those birds, but I had to guess, were a lot of the birds that the guys in Missouri, Southeast Missouri, see pretty quick. So they got past them. And then those big jump days, you get, if it's 85 degrees in Central Arkansas, And it's 70 in half of Indiana, half of Illinois, and half of Missouri. And you've got south winds cranked at 30, 25, 30, maybe gusts to 40 or 50. Those big jumps are, it's like a commuter jet flying from Fort Wayne, Indiana to Columbus. I mean, it's nothing. It's poof, gone, see ya. So that definitely happened this year. And I saw it. I witnessed it a couple of times and it was spectacular. But I will say this, what was really, really the big standout, and I don't want to get ahead of you, but It was the juveniles, the juvie snow geese, and guys just don't believe it. It's like they have to see it with their own two eyes. But going back to the first week of February, our best day, the crew of guys I hunt with, I think we got 75 or 80 birds, all migrants, all birds pushing. And I'd say 85, 90% of the birds that we had in the spread, and boy did we have them. I mean, it's really, really great. spins, they were juveniles. I mean, you'd look up at a flock and you'd like, I'd follow them with binoculars for a mile. I'd say there's not one adult in that flock and there's 300 birds. That was the first week of February. So a lot of those birds head over to Mount City and they go to Lois Bluffs and hang out. And I think everybody kind of expected him to kind of turn around and come back. It was amazing. It's a lot of them pushed into South Dakota. By mid February, they were seeing them up there. So I do think those guys in Missouri kind of got gypped on the birds. And sometimes it's just the luck of the draw. But when you're right there and so close to the mobs, that has to be frustrating.
Chris Jennings: Yeah. Yeah. Talking to John Pullman, uh, another contributor for our migration alert program. Uh, you know, he mentioned that some of the outfitters that he knew were running spreads in Missouri and they were from South Dakota and he was by February 15th. Those guys were packing and going back to South Dakota like like they the birds had already bounced up there now once they got there like you mentioned those things hunkered down and rode out some some pretty cold weather but that Missouri River corridor there in South Dakota really you know. holds significant numbers of birds. And that's where those guys did pretty well. And, and to be honest, I mean, they're still doing pretty well. I mean, there, there's still a significant number of birds there and, and, you know, anything that couldn't jump into North Dakota due to weather, but looking at the weather today, it looks like North Dakota is about 60 degrees. So, uh, you know, those birds are still just pushing, pushing, pushing.
Jay Anglin: Yeah. And you know, the thing is, is a lot of the birds that we were hitting, especially those juvies early in February, they were just so ragged. I always use the term keeled up. And that's when they burn so much body mass migrating. And a lot of their, they don't have fat stores necessarily like a big heavy adult. And they just start to burn themselves up. And they get that really pronounced breast bone sticking up where it's just amazing. They have very little muscle. And Those birds aren't going to probably do real well in a blizzard condition with temps dropping into the low teens. So I was surprised they stayed up there as long as they did. And I haven't heard any terrible situations where masses of birds were succumbed to it. But those adults that got up there, man, they wrote out some nasty stuff. I mean, they just didn't care. They'd sit on ice for days. And that's the thing, you get to 60 degrees, And, you know, everybody jumps on the starters block and pow, they're going to be at, you know, central Manitoba next week. So it's pretty remarkable.
Chris Jennings: Oh yeah. I mean, they're fascinating birds. I think that's what intrigues most people to hunt them, especially, you know, they're the, some of the things that they do and overcome and the adversity. Uh, they're pretty fantastic. Now, just, you know, kind of to wrap it up, have you, are you talking to anybody who is planning on hunting the Dakotas into Canada? I know you want to, but that's probably not going to happen. Um, you know, do you know any guys who were hunting them all the way up in Canada?
Jay Anglin: You know, I, of course I know guys up there, but down from guys down this way, I'm sure there's guys in Minnesota and Wisconsin, the Dakotas that do it because it's a lot easier to pull off, but. You know guys down here that I know that are avid and there's some pretty good crews roaming around northern Indiana and certainly Illinois is just filthy with you know crews and that are that are ready to rock. I haven't talked to anybody. I think at some point, you just get ragged, you get worn out, you've seen enough. And a lot of guys have hit that point. And those guys in the Dakotas haven't hit that yet, or they're probably darn close. But boy, one of these years, I got to do it. Because from what I understand, it gets a little easier up there. There's less pressure. And birds tend to break up a little more. You don't have these big, giant mega migration flocks. Of course, you have them, but you have a lot more smaller groups, family groups together and stuff. So it's a little easier on the you know, on the ego when you're out there and you set up, you know, 1500 decoys and you actually have consistent birds coming in and not just riding that glass ceiling over the top, give you something to look at.
Chris Jennings: Yeah, I've talked to some guys up there and it definitely, just their behavior changes significantly once they get into Canada, central Canada, you know, in that prairie region. Um, you know, they, they do, they, they break up into family groups and you're hunting, you're, you know, you're decoying eight to 10 at a time rather than 5,000 eyes looking down and see if there's anything wrong with your spread. So it does make it a little bit easier, um, in that regards, but yeah, I haven't talked to anybody who's headed up there. Um, I need to need to get a contact for that though. We both do. It sounds like. I think so.
Jay Anglin: I think it should be on the short list. You know, turkeys get in the way for me, but I can, I can, I can manage that.
Chris Jennings: I can get, I'll, I'll live. Yeah. You'll survive missing a couple of days of turkey season, I think. All right. Well, cool, man. This has been a good update. Um, you know, nice little wrap up. I think overall, it seemed like the majority of people that I talked to had a pretty decent season, you know, other than a few here and there who felt like they got, um, you know, got stuck with nothing in their hands because of the weather, but it sounds like it's still rocking and rolling up there. And I believe we have one more alert coming out. Probably here within the next few days of this podcast. So keep your eyes out if you're looking for that. Um, but Jay, this has been fantastic before I get you out of here. One last question as usual has the fishing.
Jay Anglin: Uh, fishing's great. Overall, the normal timeline, just like the snow geese has been highly impacted by the weather and. I would say we're two to three weeks ahead of schedule on just about everything, and in some cases, a month ahead of schedule. So this little cool down kind of slows the train a little bit, but it ain't gonna stop. So we're I'm already talking to guys about stuff that I normally don't even mention until like early May, believe it or not.
Chris Jennings: Oh, nice. Well, cool. Well, good luck with that, man. I appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time and we'll have to get you back on here pretty soon.
Jay Anglin: It's always great to be here, folks. Get out there and enjoy the great outdoors and be safe.
Chris Jennings: I'd like to thank my guest Jay Anglin for coming on the show and providing a little snow goose, light goose conservation order wrap-up. I'd like to thank our producer Chris Isaac for putting the show together and getting it out to you. And I'd like to thank you, the listener, for joining us on the DU Podcast and supporting wetlands conservation.